What Do They Want From Me? The different leadership roles in change

When leaders are faced with implementing organisational change, they ask themselves “how do I get my people motivated to change?” or “why aren’t they seeing the big picture and getting on board?”.

The natural inclination of many leaders is to focus time and energy on what their team members need to be doing to get change happening. But a more helpful process may be for leaders to consider what role (s) they can adopt (or avoid) to set their people up to success and sustain the momentum.

Teamgage invited Michelle Mills, Leadership Consultant and Coach, and Leigh Willson, Leadership & Change Consultant at Hood Sweeney, to discuss what are the different change leadership roles that leaders can adopt to engage their teams to embrace organisational change.

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Watch the full webinar on YouTube.

Speakers

Michelle Mills

Leadership Consultant & Coach

Leigh Willson

Change Consultant @ Hood Sweeney

Ben Colley

COO @ Teamgage

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STARTS

Ben Colley  

Hey, everyone. Fantastic to have you all here today. I'm joined with Lee and Michelle. Great to see you both.

Michelle Mills  

Hi, Ben.

Ben Colley  

will work with the scheduled to start sort of now 1230 Adelaide time. But we will give everyone a minute or so just to join in. We all know about jumping between Zoom calls and WebEx calls and installing what needs to be installed to join the call. So give everyone a couple of minutes.

Leigh Wilson  

Fabulous.

Ben Colley  

how's the day been? So far?

Michelle Mills  

It's been full. It's been full, had lots of great conversations with people already today. And when I heard from Claudia about the number of people that were onboard, I will admit I've had a couple of coffees.

Ben Colley  

I can definitely see the participant number we got. Yeah, there's plenty of people joining that number keeps climbing. So give him another minute or so. Also, I love that description of full, as opposed to the very standard busy. I think full is a nicer, nice way to frame it.

Leigh Willson  

Yeah, absolutely.

Ben Colley  

What about yourself, Leigh, how's your how's your morning been?

Leigh Willson  

Quite quiet, really. Dropped two children off at school and one actually to camp, so I won't see her for five or six days. Yes, yeah. And I haven't really had much else on this morning, which is good, just time to catch up.

Ben Colley  

And where is where is camp taking place?

Leigh Willson

On like, basically, between Yorke and Eyre Peninsula on an island. And, yeah, we've looked up the weather conditions, and it's looking horrendous for the next three days, wind and rain nonstop. And they're actually camping outside and there's very little on the island.

Ben Colley  

Oh well, that's certainly going to be a learning experience, then yes, yeah, I'm

Leigh Willson

lucky I've got I've got two children, and the one child is going on the camp is the resilient one. She's, yeah, she'll just embrace it. I'm lucky it's not my other child, who wouldn't embrace it!

Ben Colley  

We all need to, I suppose develop those resilience skills in our own unique ways. Awesome. Well, I can see we've got well and truly plenty of people have joined us today. 50-60 people joining and it's still going up. But I think we've given everyone a couple of minutes, so we're going to going to jump into it. So thank you to everyone that has joined us here today. My name is Ben Colley, and I'm the COO here at Teamgage. And I'm joined today with Michelle Mills and Leigh Wilson, who are both incredible coaches and consultants in the leadership space, focusing a lot on change and how we develop I suppose resilience as people and inside organisations. And with that focus on well-being as well, which is obviously an incredibly important topic in the current environment that last 18 months has been pretty tough all around the world. So today, we're going to talk about the different leadership roles and change and what the people that you're leading want from you as a leader. And so that's as I said, what Michelle and Leigh are going to touch on. But first, I suppose a little a bout who Teamgage is. So, Teamgage is a software product and a platform that we work with customers all around the world. But what we actually are is a team and an organisation that believes in the philosophy of continuous improvement. And our mission, the why that we exist is that we want to help every team in every workplace continuously improve the way they work together. So you can see on screen, that perfect quote that kind of sums up our why from one of our founders, Noelle Smit. Now, as I said, Teamgage, the way we achieve that is through a software product, it's incredibly simple to use. What we believe is that the way that continuous improvement happens is through the concept of gathering feedback, but not gathering feedback and letting it disappear into a black hole, but gathering feedback and looking at it as a team, creating actions and then monitoring the impact of those actions continuously. So that you can always see the way that you're working together is changing and adapting. And that you have transparency over where that feedback is going as a team. It's really simple. It's really fast. And we're really proud of what we've built and what we deliver to customers all around the world. As I said that the philosophy that underpins Teamgage is the idea of continuous improvement. So this isn't something that you do once, set and forget. This is a continuous process and involves teams submitting feedback about what's important to them and their organisation. It's about surfacing that feedback and discussing it as a team having open, honest, transparent conversations about what's working, and what's not what maybe needs some focus and attention. Then putting actions in place to actually, I suppose shift the needle is how do we impact something that's not working, and then continuously refining and continuing that process. And so that is what underpins the way Teamgage works. Now, that's enough about us. Now, I'm going to hand over to Michelle and Leigh, and they're going to talk through some of the amazing work that they do with their, their clients and their customers, how perhaps they've seen Teamgage used. And more importantly, I suppose some really practical tips that we can all take away today and implement in our own organisations and our own teams. So, Michelle, I think the time has come for me to hand over to you.

Michelle Mills  

Okay, Ben. Thanks very much. Just looking at your screen there Ben... Changing that over? That's terrific. Excellent. Thank you very much. And thank you for the introduction and the great background in relation to Teamgage, I've had the benefit of working with Teamgage before and know the value that it can add to teams. I'm really fortunate to be able to work with Leigh once again today, Leigh and I have worked together in a couple of different organisations, very different industries, as well. And I absolutely respect her skills as a change and a cultural leader and coach. And I know that her storytelling today is going to add real value to some of the key concepts that I touch on early on in the piece. I'm also thinking as we were reflecting on the numbers growing of people attending today that we've probably got some amazing change practitioners joining us. And so it is a bit humbling for Leigh and I to be able to share our experiences in supporting people through change and hope that it can add some value as well, which is yeah, which is great. I'm going to head over and share some screens now. So hopefully this is all working well for people there. As we kick off today. So our topic today is, of course, you know, what do they want from me? The different roles when we are leading people through change and got quite a bit to share. Before we dive headlong into the content, I thought what we might do is we might have a bit of a warm up activity first. And this is to help people transition from where they've been this morning and some of the busy busyness of their work world or the fullness of their calendar, and to get you ready for what we're going to embrace today. So it's a short warm up activity. And what you will need to kick off is something that I know you've prepared earlier, probably without thinking of it, and it's your brain, I need you to bring your brain to this activity. I'm going to ask people to complete a really small, short maths problem. And I'm going to encourage you to just use your brain. No cheating out there. We can see if you're cheating. Well, actually, we can't because we're on webinar, but we trust that you're not cheating. So using your brain I'd like you to and add up just a handful of numbers and then be courageous enough to put your answer in the chat box. And let's see how we go. So starting off, I'd like people to have the number 1000 in their head. Number1000 add 40 add 1000 add 30 add 1000 add 20 add 1000 and add 10. All right answers in the chat box, folks. Let's see how we go. Let's see how we go, loving it. Woo, the numbers are coming in thick and fast! 5000 4000 4100 We have some really creative mathematicians out there. I am loving this. Alright, keep them coming. Nice work team. Well, it looks like we're not quite on the same page yet. We're close, but we're not quite there. So what I'm keen to do is to try it again, really important. We're on the same page. So how about this time we cheat? And if you've got your phone handy, well let's face it, it's the year 2021 most people will have their phone handy. If you have grab your phone and go to calculator mode. If you're old fashioned like me, you might have pen and paper. Let's try it again. And let's cheat this time to we can get closer to being on that same page. So, got your phones on calculator mode. We'll start with 1000 plus 40 plus 1000 plus 30 plus 1000. Plus 20. Plus 1000. Plus 10.Answers in the chat box. How've we gone? Ah, all right. Numbers are looking a little different. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Nice work, folks.

Leigh Willson  

I like the oops.

Michelle Mills  

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well, the correct answer is indeed 4100, which is where most of us landed the second time around. That's interesting, isn't it? Because when we completed the equation, the first time around a large portion of us came up with the answer of 5000 me included twice when I did it the first time around. And yet the correct answer is 4100. So what happened? Well, let's break it down. What I suspect happened, because I'm not in your head. But my suspicion is that we were probably tracking along, okay. And we were probably all on the same path until we got to the last number. And I suspect that many of us were holding that number of 4090 in our head. And then I asked you to add 10 4090,add 10. And then what we do is we we've kind of rounded it up, but we've rounded it up to 5000, which we know isn't right. And yet many a time, that's what happens. So why does it happen? Well, from around the age of eight, our brain has figured out that it can use some mental shortcuts. And these are known as heuristics. That's a big word. So I often just call them mental shortcuts. And those mental shortcuts are really valuable for our brain because it saves time and it saves energy. The challenge is that it doesn't always give us the correct answer. And we could see that for ourselves today, we took that mental shortcut rounded it up, but we didn't quite get the right answer. So what does any of this got to do with our topic today in leading change and thinking about leadership roles? Well, my suspicion is that for many of us, we will already have set patterns and behaviour, we'll have our preferences or our shortcuts. For how we communicate with our team, we run our meetings, we have conversations when we experience resistance in the workplace. And a lot of those established patterns may well be helpful for us. when change happens, though, the ground underneath us is just a little shaky. And so what I and Leigh encourage people to do, is to slow down and to check your mental shortcuts to be more deliberate and more conscious about how we can be leading people through change. Hope that was a bit of a fun activity, and people are truly present for where they are now.

As the promo for the webinar talked about, when we are leading change, what often happens is we look out the window, and we start to look out at who we need to lead and think okay, how do I manage these people? How do I get them on the proverbial change bus? And we'd really like to encourage you before you do that, before you look out to look in to look in the mirror and start to think about what you need to bring to the table? And what are the skills that you can rely on? And what are the roles that might be required to you at different stages through the day that can help your people through change. So I'm taking you on a speed date. So buckle up, it's going fast. There'll be eight roles that I'm going to share with you and for each eight roles. I'm just going to touch on what they are and give you a couple of quick tips and strategies for how you can use them or things to think about. Five of those roles are researched based and they come from the world of Pro Site, the Global Change Management Group. And Lee and I are pretty comfortable in speaking to that because we are very psi accredited. The final three roles are anecdotal, so I want to be really upfront about that there anecdotal and it's language that I've put around roles that I've seen in the work that I've done. And as I travel through today, maybe start to think about where do you see you've got some preferences? And are there some roles that you might give a little more a little more time and energy to? So let's, let's get underway when we're looking at those roles. The first of the five prophesy roles, these research base roles, and the very first role is that of the communicator. So we have a little change manager here. And next to each of them is a little icon. And that helps to remind us, I suppose, of the role itself, the communicator role, well, that's not going to be news to any of you out there. As leaders, we know, we are expected to communicate on a daily basis. when change happens, the requirement for us to communicate is amplified. So a couple of things to think about, maybe not use the mega horn, that's probably not where I'd encourage people to go. But as leaders, you're potentially going to be privy to a lot of information about the change before your people. And if I can, I'd like to encourage you to resist the temptation to filter that information. I've seen this happen, usually out of the goodness of a leaders heart where they think, Oh, if I if I share all of this, now, my people are going to go over the edge, it's too much. I don't think they need to know all of this information at once. And so we as leaders tend to filter in and filter out what we think our people should know. Well, you know what the people in our teams will filter in and filter out information for themselves. And they're all different. So give the mall the information that is available to share. And let them pick and choose what they tune in and out of the risk that we run for ourselves if we do filter information is that if we've got a colleague, you know, three doors down the corridor, who chooses to reveal all the information and we haven't, then that can call into question with our own people a sense of integrity for us. And maybe there'll be some trust challenges we need to navigate them.

So making sure that we can share as much information as often as we can. The second little tip that I'd like to add about the communicator is think about building the communication around the changes happening into your BAU practices, your business's usual practices. If you run team meetings, and you have a set agenda, Item, agenda, then at an ad changing as an agenda item, change updates. That's important because when change is happening, the gossip grapevine often goes crazy. Your people are less likely to buy into that if they know on a regular basis, they are getting change intel from you from a reliable source. If you use team gauge, that's great. Maybe we look at dedicating a gauge to change which is fabulous, because we know then we have some true conversations around change coming. So that's the very first role. The second is the liaison role. And I often describe this role as being a really under utilised role, more conscious awareness to this one can be valuable. The liaison role is a little bit like a little bit like being the meat in the sandwich. And my apologies to any vegans out there, I do try and find a better analogy or work on that one. We know we need to communicate information out to our team. It is just as important that we act as a liaison and we take information from our team, back to the project teams that change chapters if you have them in your organisation, senior managers if it's appropriate to share those stories about what's working, what's not working ideas for improvement, finding a way to respond to questions that you yourself can't answer. Because when we act as a liaison and we create a two way communication channel, we're more likely to have our people engage with the change because they're participating. They're participating early. They feel like they're a part of the change and it's not necessarily just being done to them. So that's the liaison role. The third role. The third one's an interesting one and an important one. It's As the advocate, this is about us as the leader flying that change flag. Now, as a leader, we will wear a lot of hats. One of those hats might be to do our best to win the heads in the hearts of the people that work with us. The second half is to be an advocate for the organisation that pays our wage. And it can be easy to advocate for a change that we see is beneficial to us or for our teams. When we can't see the benefit, that's where the challenge may be. As leaders, though, it's important that we are able to advocate for changes that the organisation deems to be beneficial moving ahead. So what do you do if you're not quite onboard yourself? Well, number one, ask more questions. What is it that you're missing? Ask more questions, seek out people within your peer group who may have a different perspective to you. I found that when changes announced often what people do is they gravitate towards people that are likely to have the same perspective as themselves. So be courageous enough to go the other way. Seek out some people who are already on board who can see the positives and ask them to share their story. So you can potentially have a better understanding to take back to your team.

The second thing I'd encourage people to do as an advocate is to really think about the language that you use when you're talking about change with your people .And what I mean by that is think about whether we are subconsciously using language when we're not on board that paints us into the corner of being victims, victims of the change. So that might sound like Oh, Jamie, yeah, you're not going to believe this. But they've made that decision or executive have decided, and yeah, look, I don't agree either. But I suppose we have to. So as soon as we're starting to use language like that, then we're creating a space where the people that report to you are potentially going to take on that same sense of being victims to the change. Now, I'm not going to sit here and encourage people to be fake, I think we can still be authentic and advocate for the change. So language that worked for me, and that I've shared with other people, is to potentially share with the team, hey, team, we as an organisation have decided the decisions been made. And I might, because my people know me say something along the lines of You know what, I'll be honest, I'm still getting my head and my heart around it. The reality is the decision is made, and I believe in us. So let's figure out a way that we make this work for us. And I find that a more authentic conversation to have. All right, the fourth role, we have our change manager there, our change leader who's carrying the umbrella you can imagine whatever you like coming down from the sky there, depending on what resistance you may encounter. Resistance manager that's about taking on that role of tuning in and not out, have your eyes open. When change is happening. Have your eyes open your ears, open your Spidey senses going. And be mindful that people have a right to feel sad, a little fearful, a little unsure. And if we can create a safe enough space for people to start to articulate what they're thinking in their feeling early on, we're more likely to be able to navigate them through that resistance at a pace that's reasonable for you, your teams in the organisation. It's, it's interesting, because emotions very much have a beginning, a middle and an end. And if we can encourage a safe space for people to talk about that, then I think we'll find that we're minimising that resistance over the long haul. Alright, the last rule that I want to talk about in terms of the pro side roles, is that that top one there on the right. And now if anyone is sitting there and they're looking at that little character and they're wondering, why is that? Why is that bold? You know, change leader standing there with a hairdryer. It's not a hairdryer. Others have told me that it looks like it is it's a coach, and we have a whistle there. So the last role is that of a coach and for us to see ourselves as coaches have individuals and teams to support them through change, ask a lot of questions. When we talk at people, we're not finding out what's happening for them in their head in their heart. Ask questions. What are you thinking? What are you feeling? What do you think will be interesting about the change? What do you think will be challenging about the change? A golden question for me that I've used over the years is what do you think this change means for you? Because then you're tapping into the story that potentially people are telling themselves in their head? The other great question that we need to ask as leaders the whole way through is what support do you need from me? What support do you need from me? Because the support they may need in week two could be very different to the support that they need when we're at month two of the change. reminding people as a coach of people strengths, what have they done before? How have they navigated change before, so all five roles are important, you may find that you leverage more of one role than another from week to week. Some days, you might find that using all five within the hour, but they're all valid. There's a fabulous acronym that sits over the top there that helps us remember the five roles. So I'll share that with you now. It's the acronym of Clark, communicator liaison, the advocate resistance manager and the coach.

Okay. Anecdotal roles let's talk about those. And then we'll get into some question time. The first role that I encourage people to think about and please don't be scared of the language is that of a grief counsellor. Now what I mean by that as, as a leader, for us to allow time and space for people to grieve, practices, processes, systems and environments that they may well have been really proud of, they may have been part of constructing and using and their status. And there's pride that's attached to that allow time and space for people to be able to, to appreciate the time and the effort that has gone into creating those things. And then combine that with the coach role. So asking some good questions along the lines of what is it about the current system that serves you? Well, what is it about the current team setup that works for you ,because then we might be finding out what we could transition across to the future state. And we can also help remind people of what staying the same, because often we go to a place of what's going to change how it's all going to be different. And this gives us a chance to talk about what staying the same. There are two roles that I do encourage leaders to step back from and so the very first one, it's a pretty evident role instead of the bulldozer. When we are experiencing resistance, the temptation for many of us could be to push harder. And people are not 10 pins. What we need to do is respect that people will move at a different pace. And if we manage resistance early enough, then we're less likely to have to push through. Encourage people to ask questions. There's a great emotional intelligence coach that I did some work with a couple of weeks ago in a two-day workshop. And one of the things that she talked about in that in that seminar was the fact that in this global world of change and disruption at the moment, the number one fear for people is that they're going to be irrelevant when changes are happening. And when we build those through, we don't take the time to have conversations about how people have and we will continue to add value. Now the last role that I encourage people to step back from is an interesting one, and it's one that I wholly confess to being guilty of, and one that I need to work on often. And that's the role of Pollyanna. Now some of you may have heard of Pollyanna. Pollyanna is the name of a character that comes from the book of the same title. And it was published a long time ago around 1913 feels like the year I was born. And it's the story of this beautiful young girl who was often very early in life, and yet, she is so optimistic about everything that comes her way. And whilst that seems really positive, when it comes to leading change, what we want to do is be positive and we want to be advocates. But when we have an abundance of enthusiasm that can actually feel intimidating to people who aren't quite there yet. And when we have uninformed optimism, where we're white washing over people's concerns that they're raising, that's problematic, too, because then people may well within our teams go underground and not talk about what's real, and what's challenging for them. Because they perceive us as simply going to whitewash over and painted with glitter and fairy dust. So creating a safe enough space where we're positive, we're still allowing an opportunity for people to talk about what they perceive as potential risk, concern or difficulty. Alright, then I arose. That's my little speed date for us. I am curious as to how people may have connected in with those roles. So I'm wondering if we could spend maybe a minute before we do get into question time. Having people go to the chat box, again, what your contribution? Thinking about is there a role? That's a strength? So maybe joining in the chat box? What's your number one strength when it comes to leading change? When you're thinking about those roles? And is there a role that now that you think about it, you could give a little more energy to or you could be managing differently? So I'll give people an opportunity to jump in there and pop some things in the chat box. Let's see what we've got.

Ben Colley  

That was great. Michelle, I'm really looking forward to seeing what people add. And please, as you're adding in sort of what roles resonated with you. If you do have any questions along the way, we've had a few come in, you can either put them up in the in the chat or ideally jump into the little Q&A  feature down the bottom as well. I know definitely the wolf, unfortunately had the probably the Pollyanna and the bulldozer on occasion resonated with me. So definitely something to sit back and ponder on. Definitely seeing quite a few come through. We've got resistance manager, we've got coach communicator.

Michelle Mills  

Fabulous. Yeah, terrific. And only important, they're also valuable. Yeah, terrific. Guys. Just wanted to give people a little bit more space and time. Yeah, that grief counsellor.

Ben Colley  

Perhaps while those roles are coming in, I could answer or ask sorry, one of the questions that have come through.

Michelle Mills  

Brilliant, that'd be great. Thanks, Ben.

Ben Colley  

An anonymous attendee, they haven't added their name. And they've asked, What if our team doesn't know what support they need? Because they're unsure of their role?

Michelle Mills  

Yeah, that's a really great, that really great question. So my head's going to replace of that potentially meaning that the team isn't sure what the structure is going to look like. So they're not sure what the future state is, is meant to look like. from a leadership perspective, I guess that's where I would beheading back and asking for more clarity. And being that annoying little character in this side, who's poking the bear and saying, can we have more intel about what this potentially means? And for us, as leaders to ask more questions, so that we're in a better position to inform our people. If we're still not given what we would like to be given, because let's face it, that happens sometimes, too, then maybe it's about coming back to the team and saying, Okay, well, what is it that we can focus on now? If we're not sure what that future state is going to look like? What puts us in the best position to be able to manage being successful short term for today, for next week? How do we still be successful and look after ourselves and our clients, whoever they might be?

Ben Colley  

I love that idea of change Intel. I think that's a really beautiful turn of phrase. So definitely mine I'll be using. We've had another question or comment comes through from Cassie McInnes. And she said, I admit, I'm a little bit of a Pollyanna at times, because I'm truly grateful to be alive. However, that could probably be very over the top to others. I'm going to watch that. So thank you for bringing it to my attention. So just a bit of a comment there from Cassie. And one more question that's come through from an anonymous attendee. What if the bear is not honest, and does not know or care that we poke? Sorry to be a bit of a downer?

Michelle Mills  

What if they're not honest so Again, without context around it, I'm potentially guessing that the people that we are reporting to are not giving us full Intel. Yeah. Okay, look, that's a tough one. I guess we've got choice, don't we? So when we know changes coming, but we don't know what it's going to look like at the other end, we've got an opportunity to go below that, you know, that line, that line of ownership and responsibility and say, Okay, well, I'll just have to wait and let the world do to me what it needs to do to me. Or we can say, Okay, we don't know what it's going to look like, but how about we just manage ourselves every single day, be the best that we can be every single day. So we have a sense of self efficacy, and we feel good about providing the service that we're providing, again, coming back to short term, let's just focus on what we need to do on a daily basis until we get more information.

Ben Colley  

Yeah, something I also really love that you mentioned, Michelle, is that idea that when you as a leader may not yet be on board with the change. And I really love that idea of of seeking kind of conflicting opinions, because I think we've all been in the room where you're, you may be not the only one that's not on board, but there's certainly people that seem to be on board. And so I really love that idea of like leaning into that and sort of pulling them aside and asking them about their perspective and why they've kind of grappled with it or understood it. I think that's a really great point.

Michelle Mills  

Thanks, Ben. Yeah, look, I think for me, personally, that's something that I've I've attempted to do, I'm really conscious of the people that I will naturally gravitate towards, and that they will have a similar mindset. And our teams are made up of different people. Let's let's head in a different direction and learn by a different perspective. Yeah, great.

Ben Colley  

You just got a little bit of feedback. By the way, Michelle, nice answer. Ari. The bear coming up. I think you nailed that one.

Michelle Mills  

Well, yeah, look, I personally wish it was better. I wish there was more transparency. But that out there. That's not the reality for everyone. So yeah, yeah, for sure.

Ben Colley  

Well, I suppose it's now time that we hear from you, Lee.

Michelle Mills  

All right. All right. So what I'm going to do is take self of share, because we really want to see Lee's beautiful face. That's what we want.

Leigh Willson  

Not sure about it being beautiful with it. With my study background, excellent. All right.

Michelle Mills  

Okay, so we've please people keep the questions coming. I've got a couple of questions for Lee here. So I'm just going to my my reporter notes, first question, lay of the five roles that are the, you know, the validated pro sigh rolls? Are there one or two that you believe are the most important to the work that you've done?

Leigh Willson  

Absolutely. And look, I think all five roles are important. So I don't want to take away from that. But two roles, which I have found took up a lot of my time as a leader. And I spend a lot of my time as a coach supporting leaders to execute, would have to be the last two you mentioned, which is resistance management and coaching. And I'll definitely start with resistance management. I've noticed in the chat box, that, that that is something that a number of people have said that they should you know, be but I want to work on a little bit more. And most leaders I work with find resistance frustrating and difficult to manage at times and that which is completely normal. Resistance. What are we all know what it is that what does it look like in a change context? Why do people resist and what can we do about it? And I think Michelle, you touched on a few reasons why people resist and, you know, apologies if I double up a little bit here. And unfortunately, due to time constraints, I can't cover everything I'd like to on this topic. So I'll just share a few thoughts and tips that hopefully helpful. First tip, remember that it's a natural human response, resistance. And people respond differently and in their own time. Sometimes we embrace change, we welcome it with open arms. Sometimes we might embrace it, but be a little fearful at the same time because it forces us to change a routine or a habit. And sometimes, perhaps often and more often than we actually realise we resist it. And maybe that's only for seconds, maybe it's for hours days. The timeframe for us all differs depending on many factors. I think the most important thing is resistance is natural. It's a natural human reaction to change. And in saying that we should expect it as leaders. So if we should expect it, then the second thing I'll say is, try to understand it the best you can. In an organisational context, our response to change is often dependent on how change has been managed previously, the degree to which the change is going to have to us and our job, and, you know, team around us, the current culture, and many, many other factors come into play in an organisational context. At a personal level, I think reasons for existence even more complex, human beings are complex. I don't have much time to go into it in any detail today, I'm sure a lot of you know of and or reference many transitional change models in, in your leadership and and which might help you explain why people do what they do, when they when they're responding to change, and why they resist. I found a few models in particular extremely useful in understanding and managing my own, and others reactions to change and transition. And there, there are a couple that I'll share with you quickly, without going into any detail on any of them. The first two, the winning bridges transition model and the three stages of psychological change. He speaks of endings, so letting go of the current, the neutral zone, and new beginnings. And very much interchangeably with William Bridges bottle, I often refer to the Kubler Ross grief model. And that outlines the five stages of grief. And I know you've you've mentioned the word grief already, Michelle, some people might, you know, I think naturally, we would probably when we think about it, we know we grieve. You know, and but I think sometimes we're not consciously thinking about it.

ENDS.

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